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-It seems I've upset a Sam fangirl in the SPN fandom by opining that Dean should be pissed at Sam for selling Dean's soul to Lilith as part of a twofer so that she'll back off and stop breaking the sixty-six seals that will trigger the Apocalypse. Aside from the fact that this deal is destined for abject failure(Lilith is no more going to stop working toward the Apocalypse than I'm going to stop lusting over Flack), Sam can't offer Dean's soul without Dean's consent, so any such trade would be rendered invalid and likely impotent.
For those who want to follow along, here is the play-by-play:
My initial, tongue-in-cheek sortie:
Ugh. It's not Sam's choice alone to make. Dean shouldn't be part of a package deal, He should be allowed to choose whether or not to agree to Lilith's terms. If Dean sold Sam without consulting him, Sam would have such an impressive bout of bitchface that his eyes would be peering balefully from his asshole.
The first salvo from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
percysowner:
I only partly buy this argument. Dean has spent the whole series willing to die to save others. He has jumped in front of demons and other Supernatural entities to save other people. It took him halfway through Season 3 to decide he didn't want to die because of the deal, and when he came back, the only time he expressed any fear was during Yellow Fever, when he was under a spell. In season 4 he told the Angels to kill him in It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester to save the town from being destroyed. He stood up to Alistair and the Angels in an attempt to save Anna, even though Alastair, at least would have been willing to kill him. Dean's entire life and actions have indicated that he is willing to sacrifice himself to save even a few people, let alone the world. If Sam has a chance to consult Dean and does not then that is a different story, but the sides indicate that the choice is a now or never deal and I think Sam knows that Dean would take it.
Ruby probably has her own agenda, but she was right about one thing in season three, winning a war has collateral damage. If the collateral damage to saving the world is the death of only two people, then it is better that the sacrifice be made by warriors already fighting the war, who have already dedicated themselves to dying to win that war. I think it insults Dean's character to say that he would balk at saving the world, just to save his own life. I know him better than that, and so does Sam.
Of course, the other argument is that Dean never asked Sam if he wanted to be brought back to life at the cost of Dean's soul, yet somehow he has avoided fandom telling us that what he did was unconscionable.
My reply:
I only partly buy this argument. Dean has spent the whole series willing to die to save others. He has jumped in front of demons and other Supernatural entities to save other people. It took him halfway through Season 3 to decide he didn't want to die because of the deal, and when he came back, the only time he expressed any fear was during Yellow Fever, when he was under a spell. In season 4 he told the Angels to kill him in It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester to save the town from being destroyed. He stood up to Alistair and the Angels in an attempt to save Anna, even though Alastair, at least would have been willing to kill him. Dean's entire life and actions have indicated that he is willing to sacrifice himself to save even a few people, let alone the world. If Sam has a chance to consult Dean and does not then that is a different story, but the sides indicate that the choice is a now or never deal and I think Sam knows that Dean would take it.
Yes, Dean is perfectly willing to sacrifice himself for others, which makes him simultaneously so endearing and heartbreaking as a character, and I don't doubt that Dean would eventually agree to the deal. However, the spoiler as it stands makes it sound like Sam made the deal without telling Dean a whit about it. In your examples, Dean has always made the conscious choice to sacrifice himself. He's acted as his own agent. There is no choice here, no agency. Sam has made the decision for him and offered something that isn't his to offer. If it was wrong of Dean to bring back Sam without his consent(and it was), then it is equally wrong of Sam to sell Dean's soul to Lilith and return it to Hell without Dean's knowledge or agreement. You can't say that Dean was an ass for taking a decision of out Sam's hands and turn around with the assertion that Sam isn't an ass for doing the same thing.
Ruby probably has her own agenda, but she was right about one thing in season three, winning a war has collateral damage. If the collateral damage to saving the world is the death of only two people, then it is better that the sacrifice be made by warriors already fighting the war, who have already dedicated themselves to dying to win that war. I think it insults Dean's character to say that he would balk at saving the world, just to save his own life. I know him better than that, and so does Sam.
Collateral damage doesn't apply to Sam and Dean since they're actively, and at this point, willingly engaged in the fight. Collateral damage is incurred by parties not enlisted on one side or the other. Pamela Barnes is collateral damage. Sam and Dean are just soldiers taking their chances. The idea that two lives for the world is an acceptable loss ratio is a fine one--when it isn't your life the world requires. The math gets a great deal stranger when it's your life they want in exchange for peace.
Given that Dean is fictional, the idea that anyone "knows" him is absurd. Certainly, we can postulate his actions based on previous conduct, but to claim intimacy with someone who begins and ends in the writers' room is a bit fantastic.
I hope this doesn't turn into a rabid wankfest, but I just know my last paragraph is going to ignite the fragile tinder of wounded fangirl pride. She's either going to accuse me of calling her crazy or call me a condescending buzzkill for pointing out the obvious. Common sense dictates that I leave it alone, but I just can't stand to let such headache-inducing rationale go unopposed.
-I love Agent Lee on Eleventh Hour. He's like a giant, enthusiastic puppy. I want to hug and squish him as he bounds around the scenes. I hope he becomes a permanent fixture to offset the staid interplay between Hood and Young, but since I like him, he'll probably die next week.
-S3 of Bones started off with such promise. It's too bad it ended on such an abysmal wet fart. I can only assume they intended for someone else to be Gorgomon and changed gears once the strike threw a spanner in the works, because I cannot see Zack Addy trapping a toddler on the bottom of a pool, no matter how logical and just he thought Gorgomon was. He's socially awkward, not sociopathic. And yes, I know they later retconned the finale by having Zack tell Sweets he wasn't Gorgomon's apprentice, but the big reveal at the end of S3 was still a wet, sloppy ball of shit shat out by writers desperate for any sad nugget of unpredictability. There's unpredictability, and there's utter unbelievability. Fail, Bones.
For those who want to follow along, here is the play-by-play:
My initial, tongue-in-cheek sortie:
Ugh. It's not Sam's choice alone to make. Dean shouldn't be part of a package deal, He should be allowed to choose whether or not to agree to Lilith's terms. If Dean sold Sam without consulting him, Sam would have such an impressive bout of bitchface that his eyes would be peering balefully from his asshole.
The first salvo from
percysowner:I only partly buy this argument. Dean has spent the whole series willing to die to save others. He has jumped in front of demons and other Supernatural entities to save other people. It took him halfway through Season 3 to decide he didn't want to die because of the deal, and when he came back, the only time he expressed any fear was during Yellow Fever, when he was under a spell. In season 4 he told the Angels to kill him in It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester to save the town from being destroyed. He stood up to Alistair and the Angels in an attempt to save Anna, even though Alastair, at least would have been willing to kill him. Dean's entire life and actions have indicated that he is willing to sacrifice himself to save even a few people, let alone the world. If Sam has a chance to consult Dean and does not then that is a different story, but the sides indicate that the choice is a now or never deal and I think Sam knows that Dean would take it.
Ruby probably has her own agenda, but she was right about one thing in season three, winning a war has collateral damage. If the collateral damage to saving the world is the death of only two people, then it is better that the sacrifice be made by warriors already fighting the war, who have already dedicated themselves to dying to win that war. I think it insults Dean's character to say that he would balk at saving the world, just to save his own life. I know him better than that, and so does Sam.
Of course, the other argument is that Dean never asked Sam if he wanted to be brought back to life at the cost of Dean's soul, yet somehow he has avoided fandom telling us that what he did was unconscionable.
My reply:
I only partly buy this argument. Dean has spent the whole series willing to die to save others. He has jumped in front of demons and other Supernatural entities to save other people. It took him halfway through Season 3 to decide he didn't want to die because of the deal, and when he came back, the only time he expressed any fear was during Yellow Fever, when he was under a spell. In season 4 he told the Angels to kill him in It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester to save the town from being destroyed. He stood up to Alistair and the Angels in an attempt to save Anna, even though Alastair, at least would have been willing to kill him. Dean's entire life and actions have indicated that he is willing to sacrifice himself to save even a few people, let alone the world. If Sam has a chance to consult Dean and does not then that is a different story, but the sides indicate that the choice is a now or never deal and I think Sam knows that Dean would take it.
Yes, Dean is perfectly willing to sacrifice himself for others, which makes him simultaneously so endearing and heartbreaking as a character, and I don't doubt that Dean would eventually agree to the deal. However, the spoiler as it stands makes it sound like Sam made the deal without telling Dean a whit about it. In your examples, Dean has always made the conscious choice to sacrifice himself. He's acted as his own agent. There is no choice here, no agency. Sam has made the decision for him and offered something that isn't his to offer. If it was wrong of Dean to bring back Sam without his consent(and it was), then it is equally wrong of Sam to sell Dean's soul to Lilith and return it to Hell without Dean's knowledge or agreement. You can't say that Dean was an ass for taking a decision of out Sam's hands and turn around with the assertion that Sam isn't an ass for doing the same thing.
Ruby probably has her own agenda, but she was right about one thing in season three, winning a war has collateral damage. If the collateral damage to saving the world is the death of only two people, then it is better that the sacrifice be made by warriors already fighting the war, who have already dedicated themselves to dying to win that war. I think it insults Dean's character to say that he would balk at saving the world, just to save his own life. I know him better than that, and so does Sam.
Collateral damage doesn't apply to Sam and Dean since they're actively, and at this point, willingly engaged in the fight. Collateral damage is incurred by parties not enlisted on one side or the other. Pamela Barnes is collateral damage. Sam and Dean are just soldiers taking their chances. The idea that two lives for the world is an acceptable loss ratio is a fine one--when it isn't your life the world requires. The math gets a great deal stranger when it's your life they want in exchange for peace.
Given that Dean is fictional, the idea that anyone "knows" him is absurd. Certainly, we can postulate his actions based on previous conduct, but to claim intimacy with someone who begins and ends in the writers' room is a bit fantastic.
I hope this doesn't turn into a rabid wankfest, but I just know my last paragraph is going to ignite the fragile tinder of wounded fangirl pride. She's either going to accuse me of calling her crazy or call me a condescending buzzkill for pointing out the obvious. Common sense dictates that I leave it alone, but I just can't stand to let such headache-inducing rationale go unopposed.
-I love Agent Lee on Eleventh Hour. He's like a giant, enthusiastic puppy. I want to hug and squish him as he bounds around the scenes. I hope he becomes a permanent fixture to offset the staid interplay between Hood and Young, but since I like him, he'll probably die next week.
-S3 of Bones started off with such promise. It's too bad it ended on such an abysmal wet fart. I can only assume they intended for someone else to be Gorgomon and changed gears once the strike threw a spanner in the works, because I cannot see Zack Addy trapping a toddler on the bottom of a pool, no matter how logical and just he thought Gorgomon was. He's socially awkward, not sociopathic. And yes, I know they later retconned the finale by having Zack tell Sweets he wasn't Gorgomon's apprentice, but the big reveal at the end of S3 was still a wet, sloppy ball of shit shat out by writers desperate for any sad nugget of unpredictability. There's unpredictability, and there's utter unbelievability. Fail, Bones.
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